Topics

NVDA performance in remote or virtual environments


Adriani Botez
 

Dear all,

 

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet, but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help with some useful hints.

 

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which environment delivers the best NVDA performance?

  • Virtual machine? Or
  • Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with Unicorn DVC)?
  • Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

 

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare, Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that delivers the best performance so far?

 

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.

 

 

Thank you very much and best regards

Adriani

 


Adriani Botez
 

Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:



Dear all,

 

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet, but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help with some useful hints.

 

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which environment delivers the best NVDA performance?

  • Virtual machine? Or
  • Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with Unicorn DVC)?
  • Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

 

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare, Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that delivers the best performance so far?

 

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.

 

 

Thank you very much and best regards

Adriani

 


Robert Hänggi
 

Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
right?
I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
data between environments.
Robert

On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:


Dear all,

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or
virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet,
but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help
with some useful hints.

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
Virtual machine? Or
Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with
Unicorn DVC)?
Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using
different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare,
Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that
delivers the best performance so far?

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.


Thank you very much and best regards
Adriani





Adriani Botez
 

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>:

Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
right?
I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
data between environments.
Robert

On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:

Dear all,

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or
virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet,
but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help
with some useful hints.

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
Virtual machine? Or
Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with
Unicorn DVC)?
Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using
different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare,
Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that
delivers the best performance so far?

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.


Thank you very much and best regards
Adriani








Samuel Kacer
 

Hi,

half a year ago I worked at a company where the typical case was that everyone at the office had a basic terminal which would just connect to  a VM running on our company's cloud infrastructure. The system was called LVDI, which stood for something like "liquid virtual desktop something".

At first I couldn't make it work because NVDA running on it would be massively garbled and low quality despite the latency being pretty good. So they gave me a physical desktop to work on and that worked great. until I needed to work remotely of course.

For remote work I would connect to my physical desktop sitting in the office via citrix. This had very noticeable latency. 

So after a month of working remotely that way I decided to give LVDI another try. would still connect it via citrix, but this time was connected to a VM in the cloud instead of physical machine in the office. Interestingly, the audio problems were mostly gone. The audio quality was still slightly lower than for physical desktop, but it was all right. I think it was probably due to citrix optimizing  for video quality and keeping audio quality low to support the large bandwidth needed for the HD video streaming.

so i would say that if your company offers different hosts, then would recommend just trying them all and seeing which one has lowest latency.

Kind Regards,
Sam

On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:57 AM Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>:
>
> Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
> I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
> reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
> right?
> I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
> What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
> have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
> data between environments.
> Robert
>
>> On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
>> Does anyone have any ideas?
>>
>>
>>
>> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>>
>>>> Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or
>>> virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet,
>>> but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help
>>> with some useful hints.
>>>
>>> For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
>>> environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
>>> Virtual machine? Or
>>> Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with
>>> Unicorn DVC)?
>>> Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?
>>>
>>> In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using
>>> different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare,
>>> Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that
>>> delivers the best performance so far?
>>>
>>> I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you very much and best regards
>>> Adriani
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>






Ralf Kefferpuetz
 

Latency is not only a question of the virtualization platform, it is more dependent from the hosts hardware, like CPU and memory, and the number of active remote users the host has to handle. A main latency factor is of course the network and its components in between of the host and the end-user.
What results gives you a ping to the server farm from at home? As higher the MS value as higher the latency.
We can compare our latency if you like. I'm a german Telekom customer with a Super Vectoring connection (250/40).
Average Ping results as follows:
www.microsoft.com 6ms
www.amazon.de 29ms
www.saturn.de 6ms
www.keffi.eu 9ms
www.berlin.de 15ms
we can also try NVDA remote with you controlling my PC to check your latency without any server farms impacting the latency, just let me know.

Cheers,
Ralf

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 08:58
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual environments

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>:

Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
right?
I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
data between environments.
Robert

On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:

Dear all,

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in
remote or virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience
with this yet, but I am starting to work on such an environment,
maybe some one can help with some useful hints.

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
Virtual machine? Or
Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment
(i.e. with Unicorn DVC)?
Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when
using different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V,
VMWare, Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM
software that delivers the best performance so far?

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.


Thank you very much and best regards Adriani








Michal Rada
 

Hi folks.
I am using macbook air with CTO highest configuration and using paralels and firtualbox. In paralels is latency excelent because it uses direct sound device emulation on host.

There is minimal latency. Only one problem is when virtual machine starts up from suspend mode, there is about minute of doing nothing usable. And of course some problems with keyboard on virtual machine.


S pozdravem
Michal Rada

31. 10. 2020 v 12:20, Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@...>:

Latency is not only a question of the virtualization platform, it is more dependent from the hosts hardware, like CPU and memory, and the number of active remote users the host has to handle. A main latency factor is of course the network and its components in between of the host and the end-user.
What results gives you a ping to the server farm from at home? As higher the MS value as higher the latency.
We can compare our latency if you like. I'm a german Telekom customer with a Super Vectoring connection (250/40).
Average Ping results as follows:
www.microsoft.com 6ms
www.amazon.de 29ms
www.saturn.de 6ms
www.keffi.eu 9ms
www.berlin.de 15ms
we can also try NVDA remote with you controlling my PC to check your latency without any server farms impacting the latency, just let me know.

Cheers,
Ralf

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 08:58
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual environments

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>:

Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
right?
I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
data between environments.
Robert

On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:

Dear all,

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in
remote or virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience
with this yet, but I am starting to work on such an environment,
maybe some one can help with some useful hints.

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
Virtual machine? Or
Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment
(i.e. with Unicorn DVC)?
Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when
using different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V,
VMWare, Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM
software that delivers the best performance so far?

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.


Thank you very much and best regards Adriani








 

To be honest even with my virtualy enabled hardware on this notebook when vmware wasn't bricking windows, a lot of resources were used because things were a lot faster after removing the vm software.

As for virtual machines, things took a while to run, but the best audio I got was on linux shell or gnome 2 desktop or mate.

On windows 10 insider when I tried it, this thing stuttered and acted like I had a crappy system.

I had a system with 16gb ram, and I was using between 4 and 6 gb to run the vm, it has a 2nd gen ryzen and I was using 2 of the cores to run the vm software and those 2 to run the vm itself.

So there is no way it could be the hardware.

I think the best system for us blind people sadly is a physical machine running on a physical system.

If it had to be in the cloud, a physical os may be better.

However you need a good connection.

Back about 5 years ago before we pushed into fibre on vdsl and adsl my dad was still working and I had to help him configure his system to use citrix and later ms remote desktop.

I had a lot of trouble getting that all to work.

Point is the loaded server did load a lot slower than standard and things did take a while.

Fast forward till end of march 2020 during the first covid wave and we were all on fibre 100.

My aunt who has lost her job and cut her connection to half, used fibre to connect to her work system via remote desktop rdp.

She said that things came through just fine and as fast as her system would be in the office.


So my advice to you is if you need to work from home, try to link to your work system via rdp instead and see if that works.

Failing that what happens if you run the virtual machine directly.

Failing that, apart from office which your company can probably give you through their home use program subscription just about every company should deal with it it may be faster getting access to documents and files and such on the server but run all apps locally.

My uncle who is an enginier and still working has a company workstation that has file access to the servers as well as a tablet to do work while in the field.

He uses both wifi network and a 4g mobile connection card.

He has no issues with running everything data wize.

My brother who deals with large datasets has no issue though the datasets do take a while to download, upload and load up.

Point is, is there a way to run all the software on your systtem and have a drive with all your data or something if thats all.


Local is obviously better.

For my freelance testing, the only thing I ever get and access are datafiles.

Everything is locally stored and if its a site I will access that.

Failing that, I wander if you need to use a specially configured version of the vm or something.

Without knowing what is loaded on it, removing everything that doesn't need to run in the background at startup, you obviously don't need any high quality video software or images, etc, just audio mainly, keyboard and mouse input probably office and thats it.

That may be a problem for your company.

In the end it may be easier to be able to access what you need rather than all of it.

At the start I wanted all of it but after doing work on systems, I have come accross times when the user wants me to fix everything with certain stipulations.

Things like no reformatting, touching certain files, or in some cases certain software packages.

This has meant a lot of moving about avoiding direct solutions to just about everything.

If the system is broken, its easier for me to take it to bits, write down what is needed and put it back rather than pussyfoot about without touching the wrong wire.

Have a talk with your admins on what you use vs what everyone uses.

If you can run things without getting away of the standard configuration well do so.

For me, I have nothing running bar minimal security and drivers.

On the rest of the systems, cloud software, and in some extreme cases music and chat software.

There may be some things that may not need to be running while you use the system in question.

Again the best scenario would be to run everything locally and handle it that way.

If its that specialised I wander if the company could give your a work laptop to handle this so they didn't screw everything up.

Another thing I have not tried is only from those that do this, but aparently running linux with a virtual of windows is better than the other way round but don't ask me why.

Finally push to shove you may be able to get round with file access and a web portal.

That can be a bit hit and miss at times but I have had to do that a couple times.

Its not always that easy but it will do if you need to.

Another thing you can do is check and if you can afford to update your network connection to at least a fibre 100 connection 100 by 20 mbps.

This is what I and most family use and has served us well.

Right now I run a smart tv, 2 phones, 2 tablets, my personal workstation and my dad's system which is also the photo server, we also have a printer and a smart tv and my echo all at the same time.




On 31/10/2020 11:45 pm, Samuel Kacer wrote:
Hi,

half a year ago I worked at a company where the typical case was that everyone at the office had a basic terminal which would just connect to  a VM running on our company's cloud infrastructure. The system was called LVDI, which stood for something like "liquid virtual desktop something".

At first I couldn't make it work because NVDA running on it would be massively garbled and low quality despite the latency being pretty good. So they gave me a physical desktop to work on and that worked great. until I needed to work remotely of course.

For remote work I would connect to my physical desktop sitting in the office via citrix. This had very noticeable latency. 

So after a month of working remotely that way I decided to give LVDI another try. would still connect it via citrix, but this time was connected to a VM in the cloud instead of physical machine in the office. Interestingly, the audio problems were mostly gone. The audio quality was still slightly lower than for physical desktop, but it was all right. I think it was probably due to citrix optimizing  for video quality and keeping audio quality low to support the large bandwidth needed for the HD video streaming.

so i would say that if your company offers different hosts, then would recommend just trying them all and seeing which one has lowest latency.

Kind Regards,
Sam

On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:57 AM Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>:
>
> Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
> I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
> reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
> right?
> I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
> What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
> have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
> data between environments.
> Robert
>
>> On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
>> Does anyone have any ideas?
>>
>>
>>
>> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>>
>>>> Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or
>>> virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet,
>>> but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help
>>> with some useful hints.
>>>
>>> For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
>>> environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
>>> Virtual machine? Or
>>> Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with
>>> Unicorn DVC)?
>>> Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?
>>>
>>> In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using
>>> different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare,
>>> Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that
>>> delivers the best performance so far?
>>>
>>> I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you very much and best regards
>>> Adriani
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>






Stefan Moisei
 

Hi,
In my experience with vm's and remote connections, nvda remote has proven to be the fastest option.
Classical remote software, like rdp, team viewr etc, route the actual sound back to the host. this involves compressing and decompressing it to save bandwidth. Also, the devs of these apps didn't take audio latency into account. They cared about quality and bandwidth, mostly, sacrificing latency in their favour.
Additionally, vm software, at least from vmware, don't seem to have good latency in their audio drivers, either. If I run a windows 7 vm and control it directly, the latency is significant. If I connect to it via nvda remote, it flies.
I don't know about unicorn, but, if it works the same way as nvdaremote, i.e. passing the text to be spoken, not the actual sound produced by the synth, it should work equally good.

-----Original Message-----
From: Adriani Botez
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 9:57 AM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual environments

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>:

Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
right?
I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
data between environments.
Robert

On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:

Dear all,

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or
virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet,
but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help
with some useful hints.

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
Virtual machine? Or
Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with
Unicorn DVC)?
Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using
different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare,
Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that
delivers the best performance so far?

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.


Thank you very much and best regards
Adriani








Adriani Botez
 

Hey Stefan,

thanks very very much for this valuable input. A simple remote connection via NVDA remote would be ideal, but I am working in a company where the security policy is very strict and unfortunately they don't allow something like that. At least not in the standard way.

Interesting to know that you can control your VM via the NVDA remote addon. are you doing this from the same phisical machine where you run the VM? Or via another physical machine? I am thinking if it is possible to open the VM on my working station and to control it from the local desktop via the NVDA remote addon. But I think the security policy blocks it.

Best
Adriani

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-
addons.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Stefan Moisei via groups.io
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2020 00:01
An: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual
environments

Hi,
In my experience with vm's and remote connections, nvda remote has proven
to be the fastest option.
Classical remote software, like rdp, team viewr etc, route the actual sound
back to the host. this involves compressing and decompressing it to save
bandwidth. Also, the devs of these apps didn't take audio latency into account.
They cared about quality and bandwidth, mostly, sacrificing latency in their
favour.
Additionally, vm software, at least from vmware, don't seem to have good
latency in their audio drivers, either. If I run a windows 7 vm and control it
directly, the latency is significant. If I connect to it via nvda remote, it flies.
I don't know about unicorn, but, if it works the same way as nvdaremote, i.e.
passing the text to be spoken, not the actual sound produced by the synth, it
should work equally good.
-----Original Message-----
From: Adriani Botez
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 9:57 AM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual
environments

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency
between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is
quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi
<aarjay.robert@...>:

Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
right?
I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
data between environments.
Robert

On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:

Dear all,

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in
remote or virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience
with this yet, but I am starting to work on such an environment,
maybe some one can help with some useful hints.

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
Virtual machine? Or
Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e.
with
Unicorn DVC)?
Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when
using different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V,
VMWare, Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM
software that delivers the best performance so far?

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.


Thank you very much and best regards Adriani














Adriani Botez
 

Wow thank you man for this information, very nice.

 

Unfortunately running the apps locally and files and stuff on the server would mean to connect via VPN, this is not allowed as per our security policy on mobile devices. So that’s why they built a Citrix environment to run apps and files on. We also have a sharepoint solution for files which is web based, but this works also only in the Citrix environment. If I start the VM directly in the Citrix environment, the latency is very significant and this drives me crazy.

At work I have a fad client which connects to the network via VPN, but the working station is ofcourse not mobile. There the performance is really good and the latency is very very low.

 

Connecting to the VP via RDP might be a solution, for which I need the NVDA remote addon and the Unicorn DVC module. But not sure if the security policy allows it. Need to check.

 

I was hoping that there might be a differen virtualization software which delivers better performance when working on the VM directly, but it seems all have the same problems...

 

Thank you

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Shaun Everiss
Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 23:50
An: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual environments

 

To be honest even with my virtualy enabled hardware on this notebook when vmware wasn't bricking windows, a lot of resources were used because things were a lot faster after removing the vm software.

As for virtual machines, things took a while to run, but the best audio I got was on linux shell or gnome 2 desktop or mate.

On windows 10 insider when I tried it, this thing stuttered and acted like I had a crappy system.

I had a system with 16gb ram, and I was using between 4 and 6 gb to run the vm, it has a 2nd gen ryzen and I was using 2 of the cores to run the vm software and those 2 to run the vm itself.

So there is no way it could be the hardware.

I think the best system for us blind people sadly is a physical machine running on a physical system.

If it had to be in the cloud, a physical os may be better.

However you need a good connection.

Back about 5 years ago before we pushed into fibre on vdsl and adsl my dad was still working and I had to help him configure his system to use citrix and later ms remote desktop.

I had a lot of trouble getting that all to work.

Point is the loaded server did load a lot slower than standard and things did take a while.

Fast forward till end of march 2020 during the first covid wave and we were all on fibre 100.

My aunt who has lost her job and cut her connection to half, used fibre to connect to her work system via remote desktop rdp.

She said that things came through just fine and as fast as her system would be in the office.

 

So my advice to you is if you need to work from home, try to link to your work system via rdp instead and see if that works.

Failing that what happens if you run the virtual machine directly.

Failing that, apart from office which your company can probably give you through their home use program subscription just about every company should deal with it it may be faster getting access to documents and files and such on the server but run all apps locally.

My uncle who is an enginier and still working has a company workstation that has file access to the servers as well as a tablet to do work while in the field.

He uses both wifi network and a 4g mobile connection card.

He has no issues with running everything data wize.

My brother who deals with large datasets has no issue though the datasets do take a while to download, upload and load up.

Point is, is there a way to run all the software on your systtem and have a drive with all your data or something if thats all.

 

Local is obviously better.

For my freelance testing, the only thing I ever get and access are datafiles.

Everything is locally stored and if its a site I will access that.

Failing that, I wander if you need to use a specially configured version of the vm or something.

Without knowing what is loaded on it, removing everything that doesn't need to run in the background at startup, you obviously don't need any high quality video software or images, etc, just audio mainly, keyboard and mouse input probably office and thats it.

That may be a problem for your company.

In the end it may be easier to be able to access what you need rather than all of it.

At the start I wanted all of it but after doing work on systems, I have come accross times when the user wants me to fix everything with certain stipulations.

Things like no reformatting, touching certain files, or in some cases certain software packages.

This has meant a lot of moving about avoiding direct solutions to just about everything.

If the system is broken, its easier for me to take it to bits, write down what is needed and put it back rather than pussyfoot about without touching the wrong wire.

Have a talk with your admins on what you use vs what everyone uses.

If you can run things without getting away of the standard configuration well do so.

For me, I have nothing running bar minimal security and drivers.

On the rest of the systems, cloud software, and in some extreme cases music and chat software.

There may be some things that may not need to be running while you use the system in question.

Again the best scenario would be to run everything locally and handle it that way.

If its that specialised I wander if the company could give your a work laptop to handle this so they didn't screw everything up.

Another thing I have not tried is only from those that do this, but aparently running linux with a virtual of windows is better than the other way round but don't ask me why.

Finally push to shove you may be able to get round with file access and a web portal.

That can be a bit hit and miss at times but I have had to do that a couple times.

Its not always that easy but it will do if you need to.

Another thing you can do is check and if you can afford to update your network connection to at least a fibre 100 connection 100 by 20 mbps.

This is what I and most family use and has served us well.

Right now I run a smart tv, 2 phones, 2 tablets, my personal workstation and my dad's system which is also the photo server, we also have a printer and a smart tv and my echo all at the same time.

 

 

 

On 31/10/2020 11:45 pm, Samuel Kacer wrote:

Hi,

 

half a year ago I worked at a company where the typical case was that everyone at the office had a basic terminal which would just connect to  a VM running on our company's cloud infrastructure. The system was called LVDI, which stood for something like "liquid virtual desktop something".

 

At first I couldn't make it work because NVDA running on it would be massively garbled and low quality despite the latency being pretty good. So they gave me a physical desktop to work on and that worked great. until I needed to work remotely of course.

 

For remote work I would connect to my physical desktop sitting in the office via citrix. This had very noticeable latency. 

 

So after a month of working remotely that way I decided to give LVDI another try. would still connect it via citrix, but this time was connected to a VM in the cloud instead of physical machine in the office. Interestingly, the audio problems were mostly gone. The audio quality was still slightly lower than for physical desktop, but it was all right. I think it was probably due to citrix optimizing  for video quality and keeping audio quality low to support the large bandwidth needed for the HD video streaming.

 

so i would say that if your company offers different hosts, then would recommend just trying them all and seeing which one has lowest latency.

 

Kind Regards,

Sam

 

On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:57 AM Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>:
>
> Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
> I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
> reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
> right?
> I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
> What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
> have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
> data between environments.
> Robert
>
>> On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
>> Does anyone have any ideas?
>>
>>
>>
>> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>>
>>>> Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or
>>> virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet,
>>> but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help
>>> with some useful hints.
>>>
>>> For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
>>> environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
>>> Virtual machine? Or
>>> Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with
>>> Unicorn DVC)?
>>> Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?
>>>
>>> In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using
>>> different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare,
>>> Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that
>>> delivers the best performance so far?
>>>
>>> I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you very much and best regards
>>> Adriani
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>





Adriani Botez
 

Dear Michal,

thank you very much for your feedback. Is paralels also available for Windows? What do you exactly mean with keyboard problems? Are some functions not being sent to the VM? I have such problems in the Citrix VM while I am running a skype conversation on the local machine. During the skype conversation, the keyboard seems los when I try to do something in the VM. Don't know how to avoid this unfortunately...

Best
Adriani

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-
addons.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Michal Rada
Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 13:07
An: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual
environments

Hi folks.
I am using macbook air with CTO highest configuration and using paralels and
firtualbox. In paralels is latency excelent because it uses direct sound device
emulation on host.

There is minimal latency. Only one problem is when virtual machine starts up
from suspend mode, there is about minute of doing nothing usable. And of
course some problems with keyboard on virtual machine.


S pozdravem
Michal Rada

31. 10. 2020 v 12:20, Ralf Kefferpuetz <ralf.kefferpuetz@...>:

Latency is not only a question of the virtualization platform, it is more
dependent from the hosts hardware, like CPU and memory, and the number
of active remote users the host has to handle. A main latency factor is of
course the network and its components in between of the host and the end-
user.
What results gives you a ping to the server farm from at home? As higher the
MS value as higher the latency.
We can compare our latency if you like. I'm a german Telekom customer with
a Super Vectoring connection (250/40).
Average Ping results as follows:
www.microsoft.com 6ms
www.amazon.de 29ms
www.saturn.de 6ms
www.keffi.eu 9ms
www.berlin.de 15ms
we can also try NVDA remote with you controlling my PC to check your
latency without any server farms impacting the latency, just let me know.

Cheers,
Ralf
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-
addons.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 08:58
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual
environments

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency
between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is
quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi
<aarjay.robert@...>:

Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
right?
I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
data between environments.
Robert

On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:

Dear all,

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in
remote or virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience
with this yet, but I am starting to work on such an environment,
maybe some one can help with some useful hints.

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
Virtual machine? Or
Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment
(i.e. with Unicorn DVC)?
Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when
using different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V,
VMWare, Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM
software that delivers the best performance so far?

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.


Thank you very much and best regards Adriani






















Adriani Botez
 

Hey Ralph,

thank you very much for your input, very helpful as always.
There is only me as remote user running on the VM, but I am running the VM directly without any remote connection actually. The laptop is quite ok, it has 4 CPU cores about 4 ghz each and more than 8 gb ram, it should be enough to run the VM.

There is no sofisticated software runing, all applications are web based in our company and are running through the browser. Apart from that I have only MS Office, Adobe reader and ABBYY Finereader installed on the VM.

I can try to generate the pings tomorrow and see what I get, but it is definitely much much slower than the local desktop. I have Fibre-100 at home, so this should be quite ok.
Let's try with the NVDA remote maybe on Friday if you are available, I am curious if the security policy allows it or not.

Best
Adriani

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-
addons.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Ralf Kefferpuetz
Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 12:20
An: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual
environments

Latency is not only a question of the virtualization platform, it is more
dependent from the hosts hardware, like CPU and memory, and the number
of active remote users the host has to handle. A main latency factor is of
course the network and its components in between of the host and the end-
user.
What results gives you a ping to the server farm from at home? As higher the
MS value as higher the latency.
We can compare our latency if you like. I'm a german Telekom customer with
a Super Vectoring connection (250/40).
Average Ping results as follows:
www.microsoft.com 6ms
www.amazon.de 29ms
www.saturn.de 6ms
www.keffi.eu 9ms
www.berlin.de 15ms
we can also try NVDA remote with you controlling my PC to check your
latency without any server farms impacting the latency, just let me know.

Cheers,
Ralf
-----Original Message-----
From: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-
addons.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adriani Botez
Sent: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 08:58
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual
environments

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency
between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is
quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi
<aarjay.robert@...>:

Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
right?
I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
data between environments.
Robert

On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:

Dear all,

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in
remote or virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience
with this yet, but I am starting to work on such an environment,
maybe some one can help with some useful hints.

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
Virtual machine? Or
Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment
(i.e. with Unicorn DVC)?
Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when
using different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V,
VMWare, Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM
software that delivers the best performance so far?

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.


Thank you very much and best regards Adriani
















Adriani Botez
 

Thank you Samuel for the interesting information. I am learning alot here guys :-)

 

Unfortunately they created only one host for me, so I am the only one with this solution so far. All other coleagues use the server farm and connect to it via Citrix, using thin clients or their laptops. They don’t have any dedicated servers, so this is the problem. They would have to install NVDA on each server to make this work for me, but this would be very huge work because we have more than 70 servers or so.

 

 

Von: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Samuel Kacer
Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 11:46
An: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual environments

 

Hi,

 

half a year ago I worked at a company where the typical case was that everyone at the office had a basic terminal which would just connect to  a VM running on our company's cloud infrastructure. The system was called LVDI, which stood for something like "liquid virtual desktop something".

 

At first I couldn't make it work because NVDA running on it would be massively garbled and low quality despite the latency being pretty good. So they gave me a physical desktop to work on and that worked great. until I needed to work remotely of course.

 

For remote work I would connect to my physical desktop sitting in the office via citrix. This had very noticeable latency. 

 

So after a month of working remotely that way I decided to give LVDI another try. would still connect it via citrix, but this time was connected to a VM in the cloud instead of physical machine in the office. Interestingly, the audio problems were mostly gone. The audio quality was still slightly lower than for physical desktop, but it was all right. I think it was probably due to citrix optimizing  for video quality and keeping audio quality low to support the large bandwidth needed for the HD video streaming.

 

so i would say that if your company offers different hosts, then would recommend just trying them all and seeing which one has lowest latency.

 

Kind Regards,

Sam

 

On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:57 AM Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>:
>
> Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
> I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
> reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
> right?
> I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
> What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
> have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
> data between environments.
> Robert
>
>> On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
>> Does anyone have any ideas?
>>
>>
>>
>> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>>
>>>> Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or
>>> virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet,
>>> but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help
>>> with some useful hints.
>>>
>>> For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
>>> environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
>>> Virtual machine? Or
>>> Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with
>>> Unicorn DVC)?
>>> Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?
>>>
>>> In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using
>>> different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare,
>>> Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that
>>> delivers the best performance so far?
>>>
>>> I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you very much and best regards
>>> Adriani
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>





 

Here's a thought

You can't connect via vpn to your remote vm, but what would happen if you ran a vm of your work machine to connect to a remote vm.

That may be an option.

As I said a remote to your work system well who knows.

I do wander if they will allow you to take your workstation at work home with you or get you a company workstation with the software on or whatever.


On 5/11/2020 10:52 am, Adriani Botez wrote:

Wow thank you man for this information, very nice.

 

Unfortunately running the apps locally and files and stuff on the server would mean to connect via VPN, this is not allowed as per our security policy on mobile devices. So that’s why they built a Citrix environment to run apps and files on. We also have a sharepoint solution for files which is web based, but this works also only in the Citrix environment. If I start the VM directly in the Citrix environment, the latency is very significant and this drives me crazy.

At work I have a fad client which connects to the network via VPN, but the working station is ofcourse not mobile. There the performance is really good and the latency is very very low.

 

Connecting to the VP via RDP might be a solution, for which I need the NVDA remote addon and the Unicorn DVC module. But not sure if the security policy allows it. Need to check.

 

I was hoping that there might be a differen virtualization software which delivers better performance when working on the VM directly, but it seems all have the same problems...

 

Thank you

 

Best

Adriani

 

 

Von: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Shaun Everiss
Gesendet: Samstag, 31. Oktober 2020 23:50
An: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual environments

 

To be honest even with my virtualy enabled hardware on this notebook when vmware wasn't bricking windows, a lot of resources were used because things were a lot faster after removing the vm software.

As for virtual machines, things took a while to run, but the best audio I got was on linux shell or gnome 2 desktop or mate.

On windows 10 insider when I tried it, this thing stuttered and acted like I had a crappy system.

I had a system with 16gb ram, and I was using between 4 and 6 gb to run the vm, it has a 2nd gen ryzen and I was using 2 of the cores to run the vm software and those 2 to run the vm itself.

So there is no way it could be the hardware.

I think the best system for us blind people sadly is a physical machine running on a physical system.

If it had to be in the cloud, a physical os may be better.

However you need a good connection.

Back about 5 years ago before we pushed into fibre on vdsl and adsl my dad was still working and I had to help him configure his system to use citrix and later ms remote desktop.

I had a lot of trouble getting that all to work.

Point is the loaded server did load a lot slower than standard and things did take a while.

Fast forward till end of march 2020 during the first covid wave and we were all on fibre 100.

My aunt who has lost her job and cut her connection to half, used fibre to connect to her work system via remote desktop rdp.

She said that things came through just fine and as fast as her system would be in the office.

 

So my advice to you is if you need to work from home, try to link to your work system via rdp instead and see if that works.

Failing that what happens if you run the virtual machine directly.

Failing that, apart from office which your company can probably give you through their home use program subscription just about every company should deal with it it may be faster getting access to documents and files and such on the server but run all apps locally.

My uncle who is an enginier and still working has a company workstation that has file access to the servers as well as a tablet to do work while in the field.

He uses both wifi network and a 4g mobile connection card.

He has no issues with running everything data wize.

My brother who deals with large datasets has no issue though the datasets do take a while to download, upload and load up.

Point is, is there a way to run all the software on your systtem and have a drive with all your data or something if thats all.

 

Local is obviously better.

For my freelance testing, the only thing I ever get and access are datafiles.

Everything is locally stored and if its a site I will access that.

Failing that, I wander if you need to use a specially configured version of the vm or something.

Without knowing what is loaded on it, removing everything that doesn't need to run in the background at startup, you obviously don't need any high quality video software or images, etc, just audio mainly, keyboard and mouse input probably office and thats it.

That may be a problem for your company.

In the end it may be easier to be able to access what you need rather than all of it.

At the start I wanted all of it but after doing work on systems, I have come accross times when the user wants me to fix everything with certain stipulations.

Things like no reformatting, touching certain files, or in some cases certain software packages.

This has meant a lot of moving about avoiding direct solutions to just about everything.

If the system is broken, its easier for me to take it to bits, write down what is needed and put it back rather than pussyfoot about without touching the wrong wire.

Have a talk with your admins on what you use vs what everyone uses.

If you can run things without getting away of the standard configuration well do so.

For me, I have nothing running bar minimal security and drivers.

On the rest of the systems, cloud software, and in some extreme cases music and chat software.

There may be some things that may not need to be running while you use the system in question.

Again the best scenario would be to run everything locally and handle it that way.

If its that specialised I wander if the company could give your a work laptop to handle this so they didn't screw everything up.

Another thing I have not tried is only from those that do this, but aparently running linux with a virtual of windows is better than the other way round but don't ask me why.

Finally push to shove you may be able to get round with file access and a web portal.

That can be a bit hit and miss at times but I have had to do that a couple times.

Its not always that easy but it will do if you need to.

Another thing you can do is check and if you can afford to update your network connection to at least a fibre 100 connection 100 by 20 mbps.

This is what I and most family use and has served us well.

Right now I run a smart tv, 2 phones, 2 tablets, my personal workstation and my dad's system which is also the photo server, we also have a printer and a smart tv and my echo all at the same time.

 

 

 

On 31/10/2020 11:45 pm, Samuel Kacer wrote:

Hi,

 

half a year ago I worked at a company where the typical case was that everyone at the office had a basic terminal which would just connect to  a VM running on our company's cloud infrastructure. The system was called LVDI, which stood for something like "liquid virtual desktop something".

 

At first I couldn't make it work because NVDA running on it would be massively garbled and low quality despite the latency being pretty good. So they gave me a physical desktop to work on and that worked great. until I needed to work remotely of course.

 

For remote work I would connect to my physical desktop sitting in the office via citrix. This had very noticeable latency. 

 

So after a month of working remotely that way I decided to give LVDI another try. would still connect it via citrix, but this time was connected to a VM in the cloud instead of physical machine in the office. Interestingly, the audio problems were mostly gone. The audio quality was still slightly lower than for physical desktop, but it was all right. I think it was probably due to citrix optimizing  for video quality and keeping audio quality low to support the large bandwidth needed for the HD video streaming.

 

so i would say that if your company offers different hosts, then would recommend just trying them all and seeing which one has lowest latency.

 

Kind Regards,

Sam

 

On Sat, Oct 31, 2020 at 8:57 AM Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

> Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi <aarjay.robert@...>:
>
> Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
> I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
> reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
> right?
> I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
> What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
> have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
> data between environments.
> Robert
>
>> On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
>> Does anyone have any ideas?
>>
>>
>>
>> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
>>
>>>> Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:
>>>
>>> 
>>> Dear all,
>>>
>>> I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in remote or
>>> virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience with this yet,
>>> but I am starting to work on such an environment, maybe some one can help
>>> with some useful hints.
>>>
>>> For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
>>> environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
>>> Virtual machine? Or
>>> Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e. with
>>> Unicorn DVC)?
>>> Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?
>>>
>>> In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when using
>>> different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V, VMWare,
>>> Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM software that
>>> delivers the best performance so far?
>>>
>>> I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.
>>>
>>>
>>> Thank you very much and best regards
>>> Adriani
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>





Stefan Moisei
 

Hi Adriani,
I am doing it on the same physical machine, using the host as the server, i.e. setting the host to be the server, and setting the guest to connect to the host local network IP address.
if this doesn't work due to the firewall blocking inbound connections, Depending on the security policies, you can try to connect to another server in your local network, maybe the firewall allows outbound connections. Without knowing exactly what is allowed and what not, I can't give any more advice.

-----Original Message-----
From: Adriani Botez
Sent: Wednesday, November 4, 2020 11:39 PM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual environments

Hey Stefan,

thanks very very much for this valuable input. A simple remote connection via NVDA remote would be ideal, but I am working in a company where the security policy is very strict and unfortunately they don't allow something like that. At least not in the standard way.

Interesting to know that you can control your VM via the NVDA remote addon are you doing this from the same phisical machine where you run the VM? Or via another physical machine? I am thinking if it is possible to open the VM on my working station and to control it from the local desktop via the NVDA remote addon. But I think the security policy blocks it.

Best
Adriani

-----Ursprüngliche Nachricht-----
Von: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-
addons.groups.io> Im Auftrag von Stefan Moisei via groups.io
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 4. November 2020 00:01
An: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Betreff: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual
environments

Hi,
In my experience with vm's and remote connections, nvda remote has proven
to be the fastest option.
Classical remote software, like rdp, team viewr etc, route the actual sound
back to the host. this involves compressing and decompressing it to save
bandwidth. Also, the devs of these apps didn't take audio latency into account.
They cared about quality and bandwidth, mostly, sacrificing latency in their
favour.
Additionally, vm software, at least from vmware, don't seem to have good
latency in their audio drivers, either. If I run a windows 7 vm and control it
directly, the latency is significant. If I connect to it via nvda remote, it flies.
I don't know about unicorn, but, if it works the same way as nvdaremote, i.e.
passing the text to be spoken, not the actual sound produced by the synth, it
should work equally good.
-----Original Message-----
From: Adriani Botez
Sent: Saturday, October 31, 2020 9:57 AM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] NVDA performance in remote or virtual
environments

Thanks very much Robert. To clarify with performance I mean the latency
between key presses and start of the speech sequence.
I am working now on a Citrix xen desktop virtual machine. And the latency is
quite significant.

Best
Adriani



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 31.10.2020 um 06:19 schrieb Robert Hänggi
<aarjay.robert@...>:

Did you try anything of the possibilities you've listed?
I'm not sure what you mean with performance. I would guess that
reliability has more import for you than actual performance, is that
right?
I've only used Virtual Box and VimWare so far.
What about the Windows-internal sandbox (win 10 pro)? It might not
have enough features, specifically, I don't know if you can transfer
data between environments.
Robert

On 30/10/2020, Adriani Botez <adriani.botez@...> wrote:
Does anyone have any ideas?



Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 29.10.2020 um 22:50 schrieb adriani.botez@...:

Dear all,

I thought I start a discussion here on the performance topic in
remote or virtual environments. Since I don’t really have experience
with this yet, but I am starting to work on such an environment,
maybe some one can help with some useful hints.

For my job a smooth performance is very crucial. I wonder, which
environment delivers the best NVDA performance?
Virtual machine? Or
Remote connection via NVDA remote addon in a Citrix environment (i.e.
with
Unicorn DVC)?
Is there any other possibility which delivers good performance?

In a virtual environment, is there a difference in performance when
using different software to create a virtual machine? I.e. Hyper-V,
VMWare, Virtual Box or Citrox itself? If yes, which is the VM
software that delivers the best performance so far?

I hope someone can help with some knowledge here.


Thank you very much and best regards Adriani