Topics

Developer toolkit reaches a new level

Andy B.
 

Hi,

 

I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone in its development. For the first time in its history, users can gain access to the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is turned on.

Once implemented, you can do the following:

 

  • See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute, relative, and float.
  • Determine the margins for each object.
  • Find out how much padding each object contains.
  • Find out the borders of an object if one is present.
  • Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.
  • Determine if text or objects in a parent object are vertical/horizontally aligned.
  • Find the z-index of the focused object.
  • Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused object.
  • Obtain the html source for the focused object.
  • Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.
  • Anything that having the css/html source will allow.

 

Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more time and work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining a paid version once it is complete. The options are as follows:

 

  • Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to guides, training, and books.
  • Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell how-to guides, training, and books.

Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@... as to not lock up the lists with unrelated content. Thanks for your time and consideration.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

James Scholes
 

Before offering any sort of paid material, be that the add-on itself or supporting content, it would be good to know how the add-on is obtaining the mark-up and styling information. Is it taken directly from the browser's DOM?

Regards,

James Scholes

On 10/06/2020 at 9:10 pm, Andy B. wrote:
Hi,
I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone in its development. For the first time in its history, users can gain access to the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is turned on.
Once implemented, you can do the following:
* See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute,
relative, and float.
* Determine the margins for each object.
* Find out how much padding each object contains.
* Find out the borders of an object if one is present.
* Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.
* Determine if text or objects in a parent object are
vertical/horizontally aligned.
* Find the z-index of the focused object.
* Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused object.
* Obtain the html source for the focused object.
* Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as
complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.
* Anything that having the css/html source will allow.
Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more time and work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining a paid version once it is complete. The options are as follows:
* Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to
guides, training, and books.
* Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell how-to
guides, training, and books.
Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@... <mailto:ajborka@...> as to not lock up the lists with unrelated content. Thanks for your time and consideration.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10

Andy B.
 

It uses the bs4 and tinycss libraries found in the pip repository.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: James Scholes
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:57 AM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

 

Before offering any sort of paid material, be that the add-on itself or

supporting content, it would be good to know how the add-on is obtaining

the mark-up and styling information.  Is it taken directly from the

browser's DOM?

 

Regards,

 

James Scholes

 

On 10/06/2020 at 9:10 pm, Andy B. wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA

> add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for

> blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone in its

> development. For the first time in its history, users can gain access to

> the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is

> turned on.

>

> Once implemented, you can do the following:

>

>   * See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute,

>     relative, and float.

>   * Determine the margins for each object.

>   * Find out how much padding each object contains.

>   * Find out the borders of an object if one is present.

>   * Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.

>   * Determine if text or objects in a parent object are

>     vertical/horizontally aligned.

>   * Find the z-index of the focused object.

>   * Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused object.

>   * Obtain the html source for the focused object.

>   * Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as

>     complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.

>   * Anything that having the css/html source will allow.

>

> Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more time and

> work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining a paid

> version once it is complete. The options are as follows:

>

>   * Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to

>     guides, training, and books.

>   * Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell how-to

>     guides, training, and books.

>

> Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@...

> <mailto:ajborka@...> as to not lock up the lists with unrelated

> content. Thanks for your time and consideration.

>

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

> Windows 10

>

>

 

 

 

James Scholes
 

That explains how it parses the content, but not where it gets it from. If your add-on downloads a copy of the web page and only uses stylesheets or inline styles, that's not a true representation of the DOM for a huge percentage of websites which rely on JavaScript. It won't work at all with SPAs, or websites which require a login. And as the web moves more towards web components and other dynamic techniques, it will become increasingly less useful.

Now, if you were to write a web extension for the browser which could communicate a true representation of DOM elements to your add-on via IPC, that would be worth paying for.

Regards,

James Scholes

On 11/06/2020 at 11:19 am, Andy B. wrote:
It uses the bs4 and tinycss libraries found in the pip repository.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
*From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>
*Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:57 AM
*To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level
Before offering any sort of paid material, be that the add-on itself or
supporting content, it would be good to know how the add-on is obtaining
the mark-up and styling information.  Is it taken directly from the
browser's DOM?
Regards,
James Scholes
On 10/06/2020 at 9:10 pm, Andy B. wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA

> add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for

> blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone in its

> development. For the first time in its history, users can gain access to

> the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is

> turned on.

>

> Once implemented, you can do the following:

>

>   * See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute,

>     relative, and float.

>   * Determine the margins for each object.

>   * Find out how much padding each object contains.

>   * Find out the borders of an object if one is present.

>   * Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.

>   * Determine if text or objects in a parent object are

>     vertical/horizontally aligned.

>   * Find the z-index of the focused object.

>   * Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused object.

>   * Obtain the html source for the focused object.

>   * Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as

>     complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.

>   * Anything that having the css/html source will allow.

>

> Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more time and

> work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining a paid

> version once it is complete. The options are as follows:

>

>   * Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to

>     guides, training, and books.

>   * Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell how-to

>     guides, training, and books.

>

> Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@...

> <mailto:ajborka@...> as to not lock up the lists with unrelated

> content. Thanks for your time and consideration.

>

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

> Windows 10

>

>

Pawel Urbanski
 

I second James' point. Developers use Chrome or Firefox developer
tools for such inspection.
Accessibility of either is quite good, but making it much better or
optimized for a screen reader with some alternative way to review the
information would be something I would pay for...
If one wants to be into web development he or she, as James already
mentioned, must be aware that it is about React.js Angular or Vue for
that matter... Last but definitely not least about a good flow when it
comes to communication with other developers on the team...
Knowling a color of a button is useful in the grand scheme of things,
but the design of web sites and apps is much more nuance...
If I were considering some kind of career in the web area I would
focus on web performance optimization, backend and processes related
to devops, or accessibility in a pragmatic sense that is recently
gaining alot of attention.

On 11/06/2020, James Scholes <james@...> wrote:
That explains how it parses the content, but not where it gets it from.
If your add-on downloads a copy of the web page and only uses
stylesheets or inline styles, that's not a true representation of the
DOM for a huge percentage of websites which rely on JavaScript. It
won't work at all with SPAs, or websites which require a login. And as
the web moves more towards web components and other dynamic techniques,
it will become increasingly less useful.

Now, if you were to write a web extension for the browser which could
communicate a true representation of DOM elements to your add-on via
IPC, that would be worth paying for.

Regards,

James Scholes

On 11/06/2020 at 11:19 am, Andy B. wrote:
It uses the bs4 and tinycss libraries found in the pip repository.

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10

*From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>
*Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:57 AM
*To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
<mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

Before offering any sort of paid material, be that the add-on itself or

supporting content, it would be good to know how the add-on is obtaining

the mark-up and styling information.  Is it taken directly from the

browser's DOM?

Regards,

James Scholes

On 10/06/2020 at 9:10 pm, Andy B. wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA

> add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for

> blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone in
its

> development. For the first time in its history, users can gain access
to

> the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is

> turned on.

>

> Once implemented, you can do the following:

>

>   * See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute,

>     relative, and float.

>   * Determine the margins for each object.

>   * Find out how much padding each object contains.

>   * Find out the borders of an object if one is present.

>   * Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.

>   * Determine if text or objects in a parent object are

>     vertical/horizontally aligned.

>   * Find the z-index of the focused object.

>   * Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused
object.

>   * Obtain the html source for the focused object.

>   * Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as

>     complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.

>   * Anything that having the css/html source will allow.

>

> Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more time
and

> work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining a
paid

> version once it is complete. The options are as follows:

>

>   * Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to

>     guides, training, and books.

>   * Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell
how-to

>     guides, training, and books.

>

> Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@...

> <mailto:ajborka@...> as to not lock up the lists with unrelated

> content. Thanks for your time and consideration.

>

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

> Windows 10

>

>



Andy B.
 

Is this even worth putting into an NVDA add-on then? Why not have the add-on for desktop environments and a browser extension for web content? The only question then, is the layout of the browser extension’s output.

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: James Scholes
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 12:23 PM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

 

That explains how it parses the content, but not where it gets it from.

If your add-on downloads a copy of the web page and only uses

stylesheets or inline styles, that's not a true representation of the

DOM for a huge percentage of websites which rely on JavaScript.  It

won't work at all with SPAs, or websites which require a login.  And as

the web moves more towards web components and other dynamic techniques,

it will become increasingly less useful.

 

Now, if you were to write a web extension for the browser which could

communicate a true representation of DOM elements to your add-on via

IPC, that would be worth paying for.

 

Regards,

 

James Scholes

 

On 11/06/2020 at 11:19 am, Andy B. wrote:

> It uses the bs4 and tinycss libraries found in the pip repository.

>

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

> Windows 10

>

> *From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>

> *Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:57 AM

> *To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io

> <mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>

> *Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

>

> Before offering any sort of paid material, be that the add-on itself or

>

> supporting content, it would be good to know how the add-on is obtaining

>

> the mark-up and styling information.  Is it taken directly from the

>

> browser's DOM?

>

> Regards,

>

> James Scholes

>

> On 10/06/2020 at 9:10 pm, Andy B. wrote:

>

>  > Hi,

>

>  >

>

>  > I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA

>

>  > add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for

>

>  > blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone in its

>

>  > development. For the first time in its history, users can gain access to

>

>  > the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is

>

>  > turned on.

>

>  >

>

>  > Once implemented, you can do the following:

>

>  >

>

>  >   * See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute,

>

>  >     relative, and float.

>

>  >   * Determine the margins for each object.

>

>  >   * Find out how much padding each object contains.

>

>  >   * Find out the borders of an object if one is present.

>

>  >   * Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.

>

>  >   * Determine if text or objects in a parent object are

>

>  >     vertical/horizontally aligned.

>

>  >   * Find the z-index of the focused object.

>

>  >   * Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused object.

>

>  >   * Obtain the html source for the focused object.

>

>  >   * Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as

>

>  >     complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.

>

>  >   * Anything that having the css/html source will allow.

>

>  >

>

>  > Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more time and

>

>  > work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining a paid

>

>  > version once it is complete. The options are as follows:

>

>  >

>

>  >   * Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to

>

>  >     guides, training, and books.

>

>  >   * Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell how-to

>

>  >     guides, training, and books.

>

>  >

>

>  > Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@...

>

>  > <mailto:ajborka@...> as to not lock up the lists with unrelated

>

>  > content. Thanks for your time and consideration.

>

>  >

>

>  > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

>

>  > Windows 10

>

>  >

>

>  >

>

>

 

 

 

Noelia Ruiz
 

Hello, since the conversation deals not just with the add-on but also
with related alternatives to analize how it maybe used or not, maybe
useful to share the Wave extension (focused on accessibility
evaluation, and in consequence in structure, contrast, etc):
https://wave.webaim.org/

Powered by WebAIM, it has an API which can be used purchasing credits.
Kind regards

2020-06-11 20:56 GMT+02:00, Andy B. <sonfire11@...>:

Is this even worth putting into an NVDA add-on then? Why not have the add-on
for desktop environments and a browser extension for web content? The only
question then, is the layout of the browser extension’s output.





Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: James Scholes
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 12:23 PM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level



That explains how it parses the content, but not where it gets it from.

If your add-on downloads a copy of the web page and only uses

stylesheets or inline styles, that's not a true representation of the

DOM for a huge percentage of websites which rely on JavaScript.  It

won't work at all with SPAs, or websites which require a login.  And as

the web moves more towards web components and other dynamic techniques,

it will become increasingly less useful.



Now, if you were to write a web extension for the browser which could

communicate a true representation of DOM elements to your add-on via

IPC, that would be worth paying for.



Regards,



James Scholes



On 11/06/2020 at 11:19 am, Andy B. wrote:

It uses the bs4 and tinycss libraries found in the pip repository.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
Windows 10
*From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>
*Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:57 AM
*To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
<mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level
Before offering any sort of paid material, be that the add-on itself or
supporting content, it would be good to know how the add-on is obtaining
the mark-up and styling information.  Is it taken directly from the
browser's DOM?
Regards,
James Scholes
On 10/06/2020 at 9:10 pm, Andy B. wrote:
  > Hi,
  >
  > I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA
  > add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for
  > blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone in
its
  > development. For the first time in its history, users can gain access
to
  > the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is
  > turned on.
  >
  > Once implemented, you can do the following:
  >
  >   * See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute,
  >     relative, and float.
  >   * Determine the margins for each object.
  >   * Find out how much padding each object contains.
  >   * Find out the borders of an object if one is present.
  >   * Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.
  >   * Determine if text or objects in a parent object are
  >     vertical/horizontally aligned.
  >   * Find the z-index of the focused object.
  >   * Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused
object.
  >   * Obtain the html source for the focused object.
  >   * Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as
  >     complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.
  >   * Anything that having the css/html source will allow.
  >
  > Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more time and
  > work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining a
paid
  > version once it is complete. The options are as follows:
  >
  >   * Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to
  >     guides, training, and books.
  >   * Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell
how-to
  >     guides, training, and books.
  >
  > Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@...
  > <mailto:ajborka@...> as to not lock up the lists with unrelated
  > content. Thanks for your time and consideration.
  >
  > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for
  > Windows 10
  >
  >






James Scholes
 

As far as I know, the only way to access a true representation of the DOM and accessibility tree (if web extensions have direct access to that) is to run your code inside the browser. I believe you've already realised this yourself through a lot of trial and error, trying to obtain the mark-up of an element from within NVDA. It just doesn't work.

So, my vote is that any accessibility-focused tools which need DOM access must run in the browser. If you want to expose an interface via an NVDA add-on, your browser extension can share information with a native process and vice-versa. But equally, if the UI was good, I would use an entirely in-browser version of DTK.

Regards,

James Scholes

On 11/06/2020 at 1:56 pm, Andy B. wrote:
Is this even worth putting into an NVDA add-on then? Why not have the add-on for desktop environments and a browser extension for web content? The only question then, is the layout of the browser extension’s output.
Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
*From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>
*Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 12:23 PM
*To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level
That explains how it parses the content, but not where it gets it from.
If your add-on downloads a copy of the web page and only uses
stylesheets or inline styles, that's not a true representation of the
DOM for a huge percentage of websites which rely on JavaScript.  It
won't work at all with SPAs, or websites which require a login.  And as
the web moves more towards web components and other dynamic techniques,
it will become increasingly less useful.
Now, if you were to write a web extension for the browser which could
communicate a true representation of DOM elements to your add-on via
IPC, that would be worth paying for.
Regards,
James Scholes
On 11/06/2020 at 11:19 am, Andy B. wrote:

> It uses the bs4 and tinycss libraries found in the pip repository.

>

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

> Windows 10

>

> *From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>

> *Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:57 AM

> *To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io

> <mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>

> *Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

>

> Before offering any sort of paid material, be that the add-on itself or

>

> supporting content, it would be good to know how the add-on is obtaining

>

> the mark-up and styling information.  Is it taken directly from the

>

> browser's DOM?

>

> Regards,

>

> James Scholes

>

> On 10/06/2020 at 9:10 pm, Andy B. wrote:

>

>  > Hi,

>

>  >

>

>  > I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA

>

>  > add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for

>

>  > blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone
in its

>

>  > development. For the first time in its history, users can gain
access to

>

>  > the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is

>

>  > turned on.

>

>  >

>

>  > Once implemented, you can do the following:

>

>  >

>

>  >   * See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute,

>

>  >     relative, and float.

>

>  >   * Determine the margins for each object.

>

>  >   * Find out how much padding each object contains.

>

>  >   * Find out the borders of an object if one is present.

>

>  >   * Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.

>

>  >   * Determine if text or objects in a parent object are

>

>  >     vertical/horizontally aligned.

>

>  >   * Find the z-index of the focused object.

>

>  >   * Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused
object.

>

>  >   * Obtain the html source for the focused object.

>

>  >   * Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as

>

>  >     complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.

>

>  >   * Anything that having the css/html source will allow.

>

>  >

>

>  > Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more
time and

>

>  > work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining
a paid

>

>  > version once it is complete. The options are as follows:

>

>  >

>

>  >   * Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to

>

>  >     guides, training, and books.

>

>  >   * Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell
how-to

>

>  >     guides, training, and books.

>

>  >

>

>  > Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@...

>

>  > <mailto:ajborka@...> as to not lock up the lists with unrelated

>

>  > content. Thanks for your time and consideration.

>

>  >

>

>  > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

>

>  > Windows 10

>

>  >

>

>  >

>

>

Andy B.
 

Hi,

 

Thanks for the support. I will have to try some simple tests in Chrome. On the desktop environment side of things, I might have figured out how to avoid the NVDA add-on idea completely, and go with a pure python implementation of DTK. As a result, there would be browser extension implementations and a python implementation of DTK. Would this be worth paying for?

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: James Scholes
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 6:37 PM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

 

As far as I know, the only way to access a true representation of the

DOM and accessibility tree (if web extensions have direct access to

that) is to run your code inside the browser.  I believe you've already

realised this yourself through a lot of trial and error, trying to

obtain the mark-up of an element from within NVDA.  It just doesn't work.

 

So, my vote is that any accessibility-focused tools which need DOM

access must run in the browser.  If you want to expose an interface via

an NVDA add-on, your browser extension can share information with a

native process and vice-versa.  But equally, if the UI was good, I would

use an entirely in-browser version of DTK.

 

Regards,

 

James Scholes

 

On 11/06/2020 at 1:56 pm, Andy B. wrote:

> Is this even worth putting into an NVDA add-on then? Why not have the

> add-on for desktop environments and a browser extension for web content?

> The only question then, is the layout of the browser extension’s output.

>

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

> Windows 10

>

> *From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>

> *Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 12:23 PM

> *To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io

> <mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>

> *Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

>

> That explains how it parses the content, but not where it gets it from.

>

> If your add-on downloads a copy of the web page and only uses

>

> stylesheets or inline styles, that's not a true representation of the

>

> DOM for a huge percentage of websites which rely on JavaScript.  It

>

> won't work at all with SPAs, or websites which require a login.  And as

>

> the web moves more towards web components and other dynamic techniques,

>

> it will become increasingly less useful.

>

> Now, if you were to write a web extension for the browser which could

>

> communicate a true representation of DOM elements to your add-on via

>

> IPC, that would be worth paying for.

>

> Regards,

>

> James Scholes

>

> On 11/06/2020 at 11:19 am, Andy B. wrote:

>

>  > It uses the bs4 and tinycss libraries found in the pip repository.

>

>  >

>

>  > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

>

>  > Windows 10

>

>  >

>

>  > *From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>

>

>  > *Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:57 AM

>

>  > *To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io

>

>  > <mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>

>

>  > *Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

>

>  >

>

>  > Before offering any sort of paid material, be that the add-on itself or

>

>  >

>

>  > supporting content, it would be good to know how the add-on is obtaining

>

>  >

>

>  > the mark-up and styling information.  Is it taken directly from the

>

>  >

>

>  > browser's DOM?

>

>  >

>

>  > Regards,

>

>  >

>

>  > James Scholes

>

>  >

>

>  > On 10/06/2020 at 9:10 pm, Andy B. wrote:

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Hi,

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA

>

>  >

>

>  >  > add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for

>

>  >

>

>  >  > blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone

> in its

>

>  >

>

>  >  > development. For the first time in its history, users can gain

> access to

>

>  >

>

>  >  > the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is

>

>  >

>

>  >  > turned on.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Once implemented, you can do the following:

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute,

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     relative, and float.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Determine the margins for each object.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find out how much padding each object contains.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find out the borders of an object if one is present.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Determine if text or objects in a parent object are

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     vertical/horizontally aligned.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find the z-index of the focused object.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused

> object.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Obtain the html source for the focused object.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Anything that having the css/html source will allow.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more

> time and

>

>  >

>

>  >  > work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining

> a paid

>

>  >

>

>  >  > version once it is complete. The options are as follows:

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     guides, training, and books.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell

> how-to

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     guides, training, and books.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@...

>

>  >

>

>  >  > <mailto:ajborka@...> as to not lock up the lists with unrelated

>

>  >

>

>  >  > content. Thanks for your time and consideration.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Windows 10

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >

>

>

 

 

 

Jim Homme
 

Hi Andy,

If you do a browser extension for Chrome, I would put it in the Chrome Store and sell it. Same with Firefox. Same with Edge, if Microsoft has an extension store. Maybe with the new standards where web extension code is being standardized, you will luck out and only have to write the code once.

 

Thanks.

 

Jim H

 

 

From: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io <nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io> On Behalf Of Andy B. via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:11 PM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

 

Hi,

 

Thanks for the support. I will have to try some simple tests in Chrome. On the desktop environment side of things, I might have figured out how to avoid the NVDA add-on idea completely, and go with a pure python implementation of DTK. As a result, there would be browser extension implementations and a python implementation of DTK. Would this be worth paying for?

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: James Scholes
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2020 6:37 PM
To: nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

 

As far as I know, the only way to access a true representation of the

DOM and accessibility tree (if web extensions have direct access to

that) is to run your code inside the browser.  I believe you've already

realised this yourself through a lot of trial and error, trying to

obtain the mark-up of an element from within NVDA.  It just doesn't work.

 

So, my vote is that any accessibility-focused tools which need DOM

access must run in the browser.  If you want to expose an interface via

an NVDA add-on, your browser extension can share information with a

native process and vice-versa.  But equally, if the UI was good, I would

use an entirely in-browser version of DTK.

 

Regards,

 

James Scholes

 

On 11/06/2020 at 1:56 pm, Andy B. wrote:

> Is this even worth putting into an NVDA add-on then? Why not have the

> add-on for desktop environments and a browser extension for web content?

> The only question then, is the layout of the browser extension’s output.

>

> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

> Windows 10

>

> *From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>

> *Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 12:23 PM

> *To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io

> <mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>

> *Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

>

> That explains how it parses the content, but not where it gets it from.

>

> If your add-on downloads a copy of the web page and only uses

>

> stylesheets or inline styles, that's not a true representation of the

>

> DOM for a huge percentage of websites which rely on JavaScript.  It

>

> won't work at all with SPAs, or websites which require a login.  And as

>

> the web moves more towards web components and other dynamic techniques,

>

> it will become increasingly less useful.

>

> Now, if you were to write a web extension for the browser which could

>

> communicate a true representation of DOM elements to your add-on via

>

> IPC, that would be worth paying for.

>

> Regards,

>

> James Scholes

>

> On 11/06/2020 at 11:19 am, Andy B. wrote:

>

>  > It uses the bs4 and tinycss libraries found in the pip repository.

>

>  >

>

>  > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

>

>  > Windows 10

>

>  >

>

>  > *From: *James Scholes <mailto:james@...>

>

>  > *Sent: *Thursday, June 11, 2020 10:57 AM

>

>  > *To: *nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io

>

>  > <mailto:nvda-addons@nvda-addons.groups.io>

>

>  > *Subject: *Re: [nvda-addons] Developer toolkit reaches a new level

>

>  >

>

>  > Before offering any sort of paid material, be that the add-on itself or

>

>  >

>

>  > supporting content, it would be good to know how the add-on is obtaining

>

>  >

>

>  > the mark-up and styling information.  Is it taken directly from the

>

>  >

>

>  > browser's DOM?

>

>  >

>

>  > Regards,

>

>  >

>

>  > James Scholes

>

>  >

>

>  > On 10/06/2020 at 9:10 pm, Andy B. wrote:

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Hi,

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > I am writing today to let you know that Developer toolkit, an NVDA

>

>  >

>

>  >  > add-on which assists with the user interface design experience for

>

>  >

>

>  >  > blind/visually impaired developers, has reached a major milestone

> in its

>

>  >

>

>  >  > development. For the first time in its history, users can gain

> access to

>

>  >

>

>  >  > the css and html of the focused object while developer toolkit mode is

>

>  >

>

>  >  > turned on.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Once implemented, you can do the following:

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * See positioning of the focused object. For example, absolute,

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     relative, and float.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Determine the margins for each object.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find out how much padding each object contains.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find out the borders of an object if one is present.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find font/formatting information provided directly from the css.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Determine if text or objects in a parent object are

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     vertical/horizontally aligned.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find the z-index of the focused object.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Find out anything the style rule has defined for the focused

> object.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Obtain the html source for the focused object.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Explore and get suggestions on common color schemes such as

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     complementary, monochrome, analogous, triad, square, etc.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Anything that having the css/html source will allow.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Since this opens many more opportunities, it also demands more

> time and

>

>  >

>

>  >  > work. I would like to know how interested people are in obtaining

> a paid

>

>  >

>

>  >  > version once it is complete. The options are as follows:

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Offer a free NVDA add-on that does everything, and sell how-to

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     guides, training, and books.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >   * Offer a free edition and paid edition of the add-on, and sell

> how-to

>

>  >

>

>  >  >     guides, training, and books.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Send your preferences and any concerns to ajborka@...

>

>  >

>

>  >  > <mailto:ajborka@...> as to not lock up the lists with unrelated

>

>  >

>

>  >  > content. Thanks for your time and consideration.

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for

>

>  >

>

>  >  > Windows 10

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >  >

>

>  >

>

>  >

>

>